Mosque Near Ground Zero

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Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Oberon on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:42 pm

An average google search on the subject.

There have been a lot of news stories circulating about the plan to build a mosque near Ground Zero, and with it, a lot of chain emails circulating about how Muslims hate our way of life and they are spitting in the face of America by building a religious building near the site of one of our nation's greatest disasters.

I find all of this prejudice more than vaguely ridiculous. American stupidity is taking over again. Yes, the terrorists destroyed the World Trade Centers because they were Muslims on a jihad. This does not mean that every Muslim is on a jihad. Our class studied Islam sophomore year. Jihad, although it is one of the main tenets of the faith, is the optional sixth pillar, overshadowed by the five pillars of what most people consider to be common decency.

Furthermore, the fact that they are objecting to the construction project since it is a religious building shows even more shortsightedness. I am almost certain that, if it had been Christians who had bombed the WTCs, nobody would have objected to building a chapel at the site of Ground Zero. Why is this? Because people would have seen a chapel there as a sign of respect to the fallen, whether the fallen were Christian or not.

Now, before the reactionary element among you start denouncing me for my terrorism and support of evil in this nation, let me give you one more thing to think about. If there were Muslims who died in the WTC, would building a mosque be a slap in the face to them?
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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Canterbury on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:47 pm

Everyone in this scenario are all Americans. If we let ourselves to disallow other Americans their right of religious practice, then we'll continue to be a nation divided. We'll continue to be a nation turning back on its principals. That is exactly what the enemy wants.

If we acknowledge the right to practice any religion anywhere in spite of context, then it could not be any bigger slap in the face to our enemies, since we stand as a people who openly sees, disregards, and differentiates Al-Qaeda from "actual" Islam. To tell them that there is no they in Islam, but rather only Al-Qaeda.

Oberon wrote:Now, before the reactionary element among you start denouncing me for my terrorism and support of evil in this nation

Assuming this makes you look like an fucking asshat.

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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Redcoat on Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:11 pm

My opinion aligns quite neatly with Ly--Oberon's, as well as Canter's. The fact is that Muslims of all ethical strengths exist. While there are, certainly, bloodthirsty Muslims responsible for international militancy of a frightening sort, which must be stamped out at every opportunity using the best in our political, social, and military arsenal as the situation warrants, I highly doubt that every single Muslim would follow such a barbaric code as "jihad".

Need I remind us all of examples of Christian barbarism? Even if one disregards the Crusades and other atrocities as ancient history (after all, period Muslims may not have been so wonderful either), there are Christian militant movements* even today, and there are examples of non-violent, though still disgusting, conduct by Christian organizations.

"We" are not above such things. All religions contain evil characters. Though this does include Muslims, I would consider it an irrational prejudice to single them out. For this reason, they have a right to build their mosque wherever land is available. Including a site near the former location of the World Trade Center. Because, my friends, they are human beings.

Also, Canter's political judgment is right. This would help us win this spat we're having. By standing for freedom and democracy we can make ourselves better, both genuinely and in appearances, whilst making our enemies the clowns they are. As I've said before, this is a political conflict, not a military one. Discipline and uniformity will not win it.

... I'm inclined to agree with Canter about what he quoted, as a penultimate note. Laughing

*I would have linked to the Army of God's actual website, but it's pretty disgusting. Pictures of aborted babies and shit. Don't go there. I warned you. If you really want to see it, there's a link in the Wikipedia entry I linked to above.
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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Durandal on Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:02 pm

That sounded like a pretty clear message, calling not for common sense (how far from Ground Zero is it okay to build a mosque?), but for commemoration of what the U.S. stands for. But when 68% of Americans object to the project (according to a CNN poll), and Republicans are quick to attack the president’s endorsement of the mosque, it’s not so easy to remain principled.

Human Stupidity strikes again!

Really, I don't get what the issue is with a mosque being built near Ground Zero, sure the terrorists were Muslims, but would our constitution give one shit? Probably not, this nation was built upon freedom of religion, along with other freedoms, and I believe this should be strictly enforced. It's embarrassing to see that a whooping 68% of Americans are going against their own constitution and disallowing the structure to be built.

I agree with Canterbury in full - disallowing this to be built would make our enemies the victors; for them to gain the satisfaction of knowing that they have caused such havoc for the American People to actively protest mosques and hate Muslims is literally, just us slapping ourselves. I'd call this Christian Arrogance, but other factors seem to be at play as well, so it seems more of American Arrogance.

Sadly, the truth seems to be we already allowed them to win, because reading even some of the article, I can tell it won't get the approval. It looks like America is slowly disregarding the Bill of Rights more and more. Surely our Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves.
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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Kamikaze_X on Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:31 pm

Now, I for one am quite divided in my feelings toward this situation. I would like to be like you guys and completely and utterly stand on one side, saying that I totally support their building a mosque... however, I will be honest and saying I can't totally support it.

I suppose my thoughts are divided between thinking it is fine because indeed, our freedoms include the right to practice any or all religions. This of course includes the building of religious structures such as chapels, churches, synagogues, and indeed.. mosques. I cannot rightly be an arrogant prick, stating blatantly that it should be banned from being made, as that would obviously make me a hypocrite, as I completely support our great Bill of Rights.

However...

I can also say I am leery of the idea. I suppose I kind of feel it is almost like a giant middle finger to all of the families to the victims of the 9/11 attacks. Of course, the mosque is being built two blocks away from the memorial site, but I still feel it is a little... almost disrespectful.

But, it is two blocks away. And, I am sure that many who are Muslim and practice Islam are angered at the fanatics who have given their people a bad name. I tend to agree with one of the points above, that the situation would be quite different, had a Muslim been a victim of the crashes. If it was a church being built, it wouldn't be an issue either to most Americans, I would wager.

Yet, being the Moderate I am... I suppose I'll bring up my second of points.

Through the news, and various other sources, the Imam who is advocating the building of this Mosque is supposedly a fanatic himself. Apparently, he has also gone to the lengths of publicly stating that Sharia Law should be instated into the government. This, I wholly disagree with, considering the values this nation was built on.

I would disagree even more if the Pashtunwali Code was argued as being instated... but we don't have Islamic Clans.... so >_> (Albeit, much of Pashtunwali is actually positive)

Truly, I am divided on what I think... and honestly, I am probably more weighed toward disagreeing with this situation. However, I cannot do anything to prevent such a thing. I only think somehow that this will in the end cause more problems then there should be. For one, building that there, so close to a site that has essentially harvested Muslim hatred from Americans... it might be a mistake on their part. Wouldn't this only inflame racism? Yes, it follows the Bill of Rights, and I don't wholly disagree or approve, however even America has a lot of fanatics.

I suppose, if the Mosque were being advocated by an Imam who was arguably a good man, moral and just... then I would whole-heartedly agree with its construction, no matter where it was places. And truly, I bet most who would attend this Mosque will be good Muslims anyway.... fanatics are few and far between. But what they teach there under a fanatic's hand.... I am leery about.

The truth is, there ARE Muslims out there who are harboring and teaching to hate America and the western world. No one can argue against this even here. But on the other hand, there are Americans doing the exact inverse. It is like a vicious circle, which should be stopped...

So, those are my gods honest thoughts on this subject, I hope they are respected, and people understand where I am coming from. This is a rather... risky topic for me. =/
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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Canterbury on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:20 pm

The Taliban are waging war because there are NATO troops in they land (not to mention the string of bombardments on Taliban strongholds by US forces). It is understandable as to why the Taliban hate us. Al Qaeda is waging a holy war because that's how they roll. Neither of such are associated with this "mosque."

Of course, it is officially called the Cordoba House, and it's not even 100% a mosque. It's a community center that so happens to have a mosque in it. But it's typical that the media will always refer to it only as the mosque since we all know what mosques are and that we will be quick to make the association that people the United States are waging war on also pray in mosques.

Also, I believe that there is already a mosque like, 2 more blocks down from the site of this one.


Last edited by Canterbury on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Redcoat on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:28 pm

This is political, not personal, though entirely directed at Bleach. Make of that what you will. xD

Why would the presence of a mosque offend reasonable individuals? Certainly the attackers responsible for the events of 11 September 2001 were Muslims of an extremist and vile sort, but it is utterly wrong to extend this stereotype to all of them. It is not merely "politically incorrect" or some fashionable epithet; I am not a user of such buzzwords. It is, however, flawed and prejudicial thinking.

You may reply with the notion that you do not hold any prejudicial attitudes towards upstanding, upright Muslims of a more moderate and pleasant sort. I have no doubt, Bleach, that for you this is consciously true. I know you well enough to discern that you do not intentionally hold other human beings in low regard on the basis of a religious designator. However, your gut reaction to this mosque's construction signifies that unconsciously, you think this way, and this is why you--emotionally, mind you--feel that this is somehow "wrong". It is fundamentally based on the assertion that somehow all the members of this group are the same, and that they all fit this mold of a "terrorist".

Though I can understand your emotional response to this, given the horrific and unconscionable acts that took place in New York City, it is impossible to condone objectively and it cannot form just public policy. You have a right to feel as you will, but the political ramifications of, to paraphrase The Chrysalids, "feel-things, not think-things", are excessive, id-ridden, and destructive, and I urge you to rise above this and think in a manner considerate of the objective reality we all live in.

Now, the issue of the mosque's preachings is a more sticky one. Fundamentalist and violent religious groups should be squashed no matter their sectarian alignment. I am not familiar with this man's character or statements, but provided he is not inciting violence, we have no interest in curtailing his opportunities to preach.

I also must ask why the reaction of your countrymen would play a role in this building's acceptance; certainly moral authority does not derive from the masses and their prejudices, conscious or unconscious. I would likely place it elsewhere as the individual responsible, but certainly not for moral reasons. Certainly any physical attacks upon this institution or its clientèle would be not only immoral, but possibly criminal, as would harassment of its staff or aforementioned attendees.
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Re: Mosque Near Ground Zero

Post by Kamikaze_X on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:42 pm

Just as I said to Red on the chat... so this clears up some things, I shall quote:

The thing I am divisive on, Red, is that I am just hoping that what it is teaching there ISN'T fanatic or morally wrong.. IE not following the normal Koran.

Therefore.. I am not worried about Muslims or the Islamic faith in particular at all.. but splinter groups who seek to spread harmful and immoral things through fanaticism.

If it was a non-violent mosque like most are in this world... then I am A OK with it being built.
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